15 Responses to “∫ The Coal-Powered Electric Car – Part III”

  1. Robert August 23, 2011 at 11:47 am #

    Thanks for taking the time to do the analysis on this. I know if can vary significantly depending on geographic location, actual vehicle characteristics, driving habits, etc; but it is a great reference point to be able to quote average values from well-known and respected sources.

    Now, perhaps you can expand on this with regards to hybrids… obviously better than 100% gasoline engines, and worse than 100% coal fired electric, but I am curious where it lies on the spectrum. And since you have already gone through the analysis, maybe you can make this update?

    Side note: I drove a SULEV Honda Civic before moving over seas, and had the pleasure of enjoying both a relatively clean pollution making machine and relatively high fuel efficiency. And the technology is proven — in 2003 one of the big concerns was the battery life, and replacement expense. As of this weekend, the car – which is now owned by a good friend – has 87k miles, zero problems, over 42 mpg average fuel efficiency, and still no sign of deterioration of the batteries.

    • raphael August 23, 2011 at 1:17 pm #

      Our pleasure to run this analysis! It’s a surprisingly complex topic to model out.

      Your question about non-plug-in hybrid electric vehicles is a very good one. As it turns out, the analysis for hybrids actually does not involve the electric grid. The reason for this is that non-plug-in hybrid vehicles (a Prius being the most famous example) are still 100% gasoline powered even though they have batteries in them. Among other things they acheive such high fuel efficiencies because they
      1) are aerodynamically designed
      2) have a very clever system for recharging the battery when you are braking
      3) draw down the battery when you are idling in traffic which is where so much fuel is wasted

      But at the end of the day, all the power comes from gasoline (and never from the grid). If you never plug the car into anything, you never draw power from another source. So analysis for a hybrid car would involve a calculation only of fuel efficiency, not fuel switching, and is easier to do. The cleanliness of biofuels or natural gas powered vehicles is yet another interesting topic.

      The 2007 report by EPRI and the NRDC
      cited in Part I has some additional good details if you’re interested. I hope this helps.

  2. Eric September 3, 2011 at 8:33 pm #

    So in Wyoming an EV is “right at parity with a 25 mpg gasoline car” – well, it seems that they should strongly prefer a Prius in Wyoming, for now, then. :)

    (I wonder if a similarly-sized Versa would qualify as that 25 mpg gasoline car, or a bit better? If a smaller less versatile Leaf is worse in WY than a Versa, I’d say folks there should just stay away from EVs for a while… not that there is probably much risk of most of them doing otherwise anytime soon)

    Thanks for doing this analysis, I had been meaning to do similar, but it looks like you’ve been more thorough than I could have managed….

  3. Patrick September 4, 2011 at 7:26 am #

    For gasoline, you only looked at the tailpipe emissions. That is far from all the CO2 that gas causes. About 15kWh of electricity is used refining each gallon of gas. Refineries are among the biggest electricity consumers in Cali and Louisiana.

    For gas you started with 19.4 pounds Carbon Dioxide per gallon. Using your 3 methods for electricity, this refining energy adds another 38 – 56 pounds of CO2 per gallon. This brings the CO2 for gas to 2.2 pounds per mile. Far higher than the electric vehicle.

    Of course, the same argument that the refinery would not be sourced by 100% coal applies equally to the refinery as it does the EV.

    • raphael September 6, 2011 at 1:26 pm #

      These are both astute comments.

      In power grid areas with high carbon intensities (e.g. Wyoming), non plug-in-hybrids like the Prius are a great choice because though they are still 100% powered by gasoline, their efficiencies are much higher. Every mile they go, they’re only using about half the gasoline and therefore emitting half the carbon.

      This is not a full “well to wheels” analysis. The 2007 report by EPRI and the NRDC cited in Part I has good additional details, but it is not perfect, either. Our analysis starts from your local gas pump and your local coal-powered power plant. But substantial energy is required to bring the gas and coal to each of those places, and calculating this energy is no small task. Energy spent refining the gasoline is part of the calculation, as is: the energy of extracting coal and gasoline from the earth, the energy of transporting the fuels to power plants and refineries, and the energy of transporting gasoline from the refineries to the pumps. One must also ask questions like: what percentage of the coal is surface mined vs. underground mined? If it’s surface mined what percentage is area mined vs. contour mined vs. pit mined? What percentage of the coal is transported by barge vs. rail? Answers to these questions and many more would be required to develop a perfect understanding of the carbon emissions of the fuels we use.

      • Eric September 6, 2011 at 5:18 pm #

        For gasoline, http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/label/GHG-emissions.shtml says:

        “If you want to compare total tailpipe plus fuel production GHG emissions for an electric or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle to those for a gasoline vehicle, you should multiply your gasoline vehicle tailpipe GHG emissions value on the Fuel Economy and Environment Label by 1.25 to reflect the fuel production GHG emissions for gasoline.”

        It’s not clear how they did that calculation, but from that, 25% “extra” sounds like the right multiplier for total GHG for gasoline well-to-wheels.

        You’re right though that to be fair, you’d have to try to do the same thing for coal.

  4. Eric September 6, 2011 at 5:21 pm #

    One other argument against EVs that I’ve heard is that the fantastic efficiency of the electric motor ignores the INefficiency of the actual (fossil) fuel source. In other words, the gasoline engine is inefficient because the combustion occurs in the vehicle; for an EV, the combustion occurs upstream of that wonderful 90% efficiency, so actual fuel use is nowhere near that efficient for an EV.

    But, as you’ve shown, if your goal is reducing g CO2 per mile, it’s really an orthogonal argument…

  5. raphael September 6, 2011 at 6:01 pm #

    Great points, Eric, and thank you for sharing the fuel efficiency link.

    The 90% efficiency of an electric motor ignores the efficiency of the fuel source, which is why these posts look so closely at coal power plant efficiency. But it’s important to note that fuel source efficiency varies widely based on power plant type. A modern combined cycle natural gas power plant will utilize fuel at about 55% efficiency while an old car engine may burn gasoline with 15% efficiency. Alternatively, an old coal plant may only have 25% efficiency, while a modern car may burn gasoline with 25+% efficiency. So many details, so little time….

    • Eric September 12, 2011 at 7:48 pm #

      One more link to share ;)

      http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/vehicles/electric_emissions.php

      In my region, an HEV has a lower footprint than an EV, or even a PHEV.

      Damned coal mix …. OTOH, I buy wind energy, in theory. I’m not sure if that would absolve me or not!

      • Florian October 11, 2011 at 1:27 pm #

        Eric,

        I’d like to add two points to this discussion.

        1. The “mean” power source in the region may not be the relevant factor. As an example, in Switzerland, more than half of the electricity is hydro-power, and almost no fossil fuel powered plants exist; the average carbon emission intensity of Swiss electricity is virtually 0. Then people in my country argue, that they therefore can drive e-cars almost w/o creating emissions, they are absolutely wrong: the capacity of Swiss hydro-power plants is almost fixed (dams are already “everywhere where you can build some”): if we consume more electricity, additional power stations are built either in our country or in the surrounding countries from where we may import electricity. For the emissions attributable to my eventual e-car driving it is those from the typical additional plants built today that are relevant, at least if I really care about the environment.

        2. Moreover, I consider it always important to point out the “Independence Fallacy”: If you want to do something good for the environment, you may indeed pay money to a company which promises to install wind energy for that money (from a provider which assures you that it constructs plants somewhere where no plants would have been built if its customers wouldn’t pay the extra money; else your money will not truly lead to additional green electricity to be generated as the wind plant may have built even without your contribution). But once you have the possibility to pay for that wind electricity, to be produced independently of your own electricity consumption, to any kWh you consume at home or with your e-car, is to be attributed the emissions of the standard marginal power plant that is to be built (if currently electricity consumption in your region has a rising tendency) resp. to be decommissioned (if currently electricity consumption in your region is decreasing, such that when regional consumption decreases, the typical corresponding change in the power generation park is that one of the stations is earlier shut down).

        This implies – “unfortunately” in some sense for our good conscience – that no matter how much we pay for wind electricity, if we have a true preference for emission reductions, we can never drive even an e-car without being responsible for the amount of emissions corresponding to those that are occurring when standard power installations (or decommissions) are carried out in the region.

  6. Susan Bassein November 24, 2011 at 11:09 am #

    Thank you for the detailed analysis as well as the caveats!

  7. Matt January 17, 2012 at 8:19 am #

    What I find most exciting about electric vehicles is the unknown potential. Unlike internal combustion engines which have stalled in terms of efficiency, batteries and electric motors have a huge upshot. Faster charging and greater energy density will increase the range and flexibility of EV’s, and with numerous companies competing the price will surely drop. This would address the three main concerns of EV’s: cost, range, cost.

    Taking a philosophical approach, EV’s allow multiple energy sources to compete for the same flexible energy currency (electricity). By reducing our energy system to one standardized energy currency, we can focus efforts on optimizing energy generation.

    • brenden January 17, 2012 at 9:28 am #

      Hi Matt,

      Thank you for the comments. That’s a great point that EVs allow greater competition between different energy sources, thank you for bringing that up.

      Best,
      Brenden

  8. Rick March 13, 2012 at 8:11 am #

    Average electricity production is not particularly relevant for EVs. Most EVs will be charged at night. Outside of the Northwest, coal provides the overwhelming majority of electricity at off peak times.

    Gas and hydro, used for peaking, are shut down at night. Coal-based electricity cannot be readily reduced at night, so it (along with nuclear) produce almost all the electricity for EV charging.

    Starting the 2012 model year (a few months from now), the CAFE standards will be 36 mpg, which should be the comparison: a new EV vs. a new ICE.

    All in all, EVs are not cleaner than new ICEs.

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